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Tuesday, August 05, 2008

How do i play this hand?

His stats are 21/18/16.1 (3bet) over 150 hands. We've had a little bit of history.

I like my 4bet bluff here, but after he calls should I just give up? I feel like I know how to play 3bet pots much better, but I'm lost at 4.

Full Tilt Poker, $0.25/$0.50 NL Hold'em Cash Game, 6 Players

SB: $26.55
BB: $50
UTG: $56.35
Hero (MP): $79.50
CO: $64.70
BTN: $29.30

Pre-Flop: dealt to Hero (MP)

UTG folds, Hero raises to $2, CO raises to $6.75, 3 folds, Hero raises to $15, CO calls $8.25

Flop: ($30.75) (2 Players)

Hero checks, CO checks

Turn: ($30.75) (2 Players)
Hero bets $16, CO calls $16

River: ($62.75) (2 Players)

Hero checks, CO bets $33.70 and is All-In, Hero folds

Results: $62.75 Pot ($3 Rake)
CO mucked and WON $59.75 (+$28.75 NET)

posted by joe | permalink | 4 comments


At 8:32 PM, Blogger Azn_Cutie said...

I really dislike 4bet semibluffing in cash games for exactly this reason - it's hard to take down a pot OOP and you're risking a decent % of your stack in a marginal spot. Honestly, I would probably just try to switch to an open seat on player's left if it opened up and stay out of his way until then. But this is easier to do in the FR games I play compared to your 6max.

Also, my guess is this is a good thinking player you're doing this to - it seems like a really marginal spot to 4bet pick on the smart dude when he's used to being 4bet light and there are probably 4 other weaker players to go after.

As played, though, I would lead flop 1/2pot c/f turn river. It takes a real special player to float pre and float flop bets, so he more likely has a legitimate hand that he is calling all three streets if he calls flop.

At 1:44 AM, Blogger observations said...

i don't think as many levels ahead as you guys do, but to me this just seems to go against the basic principles of pot control.

from the most basic poker standpoint, you want to play these unsuited connectors in position cheaply preflop. instead you're doing the opposite - building up a big pot oop heads up against a very aggressive player.

on the flop i'd like to see a cbet to push out ak or possibly jj and give up if called.

again, 4 betting light is many levels above the kind of poker i play, so maybe this is a +eV play if you're playing against a smart player that you have a lot of meta with.

At 12:02 PM, Blogger joe said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

At 12:08 PM, Blogger joe said...

good discussion guys. i agree and disagree with some of the things being said.

azn cutie - you will be surpised how often i take it down with a 2.5x 4bet. i pick my spots very carefully.

ideally ppl should be calling/raising 4bets with AK,AA,KK,QQ and this represents only 2.7 percent of all hands. this means their 4bet should only be 2.7 percent. If their 3bet number is larger than this (over a large number of hands) than they are doing it with more marginal hands.

i'm betting 15 to win 7.50. if they are folding 2 out of 3 times i am breaking even (which is much better than folding my open or calling and playing OOP).

2.7 X 3 = 8.1. This means if they only call/raise with AA,KK,QQ,AK for me to get 2 folds out of 3, they need an 8.1, 3bet number. sure i only had 150 hands on him, but his 3bet number was 16+. the great thing was that I got this number from datamining. so he doesn't know that I know he 3bets light, therefore he should respect my 4 bet hard!

as you've said that once he knows i know he 3bets light, it gets much more marginal of a play.

tbh i do not have much ego and it's not like your live games. i have plenty of tables to choose from. i would probably just up and leave the table and join another one.

my friend and i talked about this hand for about 15 mins and first he came up with what you said about the flop lead of 1/2 pot and also how my turn bet was awful as it wouldn't fold out much of his calling range, but then we really put him on a hand and it would only seem like mid pairs. the question is does he fold a mid pair to a flop bet and i don't think he is the type of player that would. it depends on the player, so i see two lines. yours and the just give up. for this particular playing i think i would pick giving up.

it would seem like i would lose a lot of money 4betting and giving up all the time, but 1. i'm not giving up against all players. 2. i win it preflop often. 3. over half the time i play my big hands the same way and he stacks off with his lower pair. my 4bet number is very small. i probably 4 bet for real 2 out of 3 times, so if he's floating me everytime it's a losing situation.

observation - 50NL and 100NL are pretty straight forward and i do play my hands pretty straight forward most of the time, but there are clear regulars that are 3betting light.

as i stated above to azn, in test tube conditions someone 3betting 8.1 should yeild you good results, but of course in the real world things aren't so easy. this guy was clearly overstepping his boundaries.

the second problem is i am not in position to the aggressive player. so that's a huge disadvantage. i'm at his mercy if the hand continues.

i used to think along the same lines as you about pot control and i played that game for probably my entire poker life, but i now firmly believe self image and playing the player is more important.

i'll give you one example.

tight guy opens it UTG+1 vs aggressive loose guy opens it UTG+1 and i have position in both cases.

guy 1 i would love to have a suited connector or mid pocket pair and just call. guy 2 i would love to have AJ and just call.

i would insta fold my AJ to the tight guy obv b/c of domination issues but against the loose guy i'm the one dominating him almost always. a hand like AJ is almost always better than his and i have position.

however if i had a mid pocket pair vs LAG i would probably raise him 3.5 times (can't really dominate with these types of hands and there is no point set mining against him). i'll just take it right there, or with my cbet.


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